An interview with the Quilliam Foundation’s Haydar Zaki

Isit down with the Quilliam Foundation’s Haydar Zaki on a chilly February evening. A sizeable audience have just watched the counter-extremism think-tank’s Programs Officer discuss the impact of terrorism on the refugee crisis, a talk organised by Student Action for Refugees (STAR) Exeter. Zaki proves an engaging speaker, delivering hard-hitting messages regarding extremism, ISIS, universal human rights and the need for a humanitarian approach to the crisis.

Founded by former extremists, the Quilliam Foundation, according to Zaki, “aims to counter extremism through civil discourse and promoting universal human rights and that faith is compatible with it.” It’s a group active in an era where extremist sentiments, including far-right political movements and the rise of ISIS, have been widely reported on.

In fact, one of my later questions to Zaki concerns what he attributes to be the cause of ISIS’ development.

“I think there’s been many factors,” he responds.

“I think instability, and instability has come about through various different ways – namely, the Iraq invasion, the Arab uprisings and Assad’s brutal reaction to it, but it’s important to note that ISIS didn’t cause violent extremism – violent extremism caused ISIS, and I know that . . . if we don’t go after the ideology that birthed ISIS then ISIS today could be something else tomorrow – it sure as hell was Al-Qaeda before.”

I ask him to expand on “violent extremism”.

“ISIS didn’t cause violent extremism – violent extremism caused ISIS. . . .”

“Sure. So, within Islamist extremism there [are] non-violent elements, most characterised by movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood, that do go about through the democratic process, where there’s also the violent aspects of it which is Jihadism, which is a minority of people within the plaudit as the Muslim movement,” he says.

“This idea of Jihadism, which rationalises the act of violence against those they deem as the enemy, which is the non-believer, is what birthed movements like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, and if that ideology is not challenged, then we will only get rid of organisations as opposed to getting rid of the problem.”

Earlier on in the interview, I ask Zaki how terrorism has impacted the image displayed of refugees.

“So ISIS, being the world’s largest terror organisation, has directly impacted the refugee crisis because it says that it will use the refugee crisis as a means to do its terror,” he says.

“It will either use it as a vessel to travel or even radicalise refugees against the states that they’re entering.

“This obviously plays into the far-right sentiments to over-securitise the approach, but also tries to sensationalise and instil fear [into] the general population to take a harsh response to the refugee crisis.”

“ISIS, being the world’s largest terror organisation, has directly impacted the refugee crisis because it says that it will use the refugee crisis as a means to do its terror.”

Yet, Zaki is later quick to note that “the majority of home-grown radicals have been second and third-generations as opposed to first generation”, and soon after, says that “[the refugee crisis] doesn’t pose a direct threat.

“There could be the potential threat of an economic impact, of bringing in such a large number of people all at once or in a quick succession, but really, this is a bit of a negative compared to the great benefit that we take in taking a humanitarian approach, not only in fulfilling our duty to Western Europe – our European values – but also in countering the narratives that certain organisations like ISIS are trying to propagate which is that the West is at war with Islam.”

Meanwhile, responding to my question regarding whether Western media is helping or hindering a humanitarian response to the refugee crisis, Zaki explains: “I think the western media does have a responsibility not to over-sensationalise certain acts that are committed by refugees.  “To put it into example: you have right-wing newspapers saying, you know, these refugees are common law barbarians and tries to link their Muslim heritage as the sole responsibility for why they committed or have not committed certain acts.

“But you also get a rise within the left-wing sentiment which tries to portray the refugees as infallible.

“Really what is needed is a nuanced approach that understands that these refugees are just people like me and you, and that certain crimes will be committed and that there should be responses aimed towards that as opposed to general frameworks aimed at a securitised approach to . . . the refugee crisis.”

Later, after the advantage he was talking about concerning taking a humanitarian approach, as regards what needs to be done as a whole to aid the refugee crisis, Zaki notes that the short-term solution is “to try and get security in regional areas like Syria.

“What is needed is a nuanced approach that understands that these refugees are just people like me and you. . . .”

“There’s also having to provide charity and accommodate for their needs right now, but really, to provide charity and accommodate for their needs right now, but really, the refugee crisis will always happen if we don’t address the problem long-term, and that is to address the extremist ideologies which have played into this crisis, and by that I mean the authoritarian extremism that the Assad regime has implemented, the Islamist extremism that organisations like ISIS have come around from and the far-right extremism which is dictating certain policies in Europe’s response to the refugee crisis.”

I ask if he means far-right political groups like those that have risen up in EU elections.

“Absolutely. Like Golden Dawn. Organisations that directly say that Muslims should not be allowed in our countries, organisations that also try and get rid of Muslims existing within their countries, and organisations that really want a securitised approach to Muslims, the refugee crisis, and even tackling Islamism.

“Wanting to take non-violent extremist ideologies and criminalising [them] is an over-securitised approach that only serves the extremist agenda.”

This statement seems to have similarities to the think-tank’s #RightToDebate campaign, positing that no speaker should be banned on a university campus provided that they are not in breach of the law and do not incite violence or hatred.

“Wanting to take non-violent extremist ideologies and criminalising [them] is an over-securitised approach that only serves the extremist agenda.”

Discussing the campaign on its website, the Quilliam Foundation says: “We believe that students will feel safer knowing that contested platforms are given to extremist speakers who would have otherwise created an echo chamber for sentiments intended to make certain students feel threatened/unwelcome based on their religious/political-ethnic-cultural-sexuality-gendered identity.”

With so much media debate on the issues Zaki has mentioned, it’s clear the ideas discussed will not be going away at any point in the near future.